MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
For nearly six months, President Trump has resisted putting new sanctions on Russia. He even called Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy a dictator, although he later walked that back. This week, though, Trump's ire is directed at Russia's president. He accuses him of throwing, quote-unquote, "BS" at the U.S. And Trump is saying he's, quote, "looking very strongly" at a bipartisan bill to apply new sanctions. So let's ask Michael McFaul about what seems to be a pivot in the president's rhetoric. He served as U.S. ambassador to Russia in the Obama administration. He's now director at the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies at Stanford University. Ambassador, thanks so much for joining us once again.
MICHAEL MCFAUL: Thanks for having me.
MARTIN: Do you have any sense of what might've changed the president's mind, or whether he has in fact changed his mind, about Vladimir Putin?
MCFAUL: Well, two very good questions. And I don't want to pretend I have insights into the way President Trump thinks. This does feel different. And you very diplomatically said BS. That's actually not what the president said. He used a more blunt word, and that's the first time he's ever done that talking about Putin. And I think it reflects the fact that he's not achieving progress, right? He promised that he could end this war in 24 hours. He's now tried to end the war for several months. And I applaud him, by the way, for trying. But his strategy has been a flawed one. His strategy has been to appease Putin, to give him concessions and to put pressure on the Ukrainians. And what's happened instead is Putin's just asked for more. And I think now Putin has annoyed the president. The president is tired of just giving. And I hope he pivots to a different strategy.
MARTIN: President Trump's tone really notably changed after last month's summit...
MCFAUL: Yes.
MARTIN: ...With NATO allies, who urged him to commit more fully to Ukraine. But they had been urging that, you know, all along. And I just wondered if there was something that he may have heard at The Hague that was particularly persuasive that Putin is not a reliable peace partner.
MCFAUL: Well, knowing some of the leaders that were at that meeting, that's most certainly their view and has been their view for a long time, including people that have established a rapport with the president. So he heard that in chorus. President Zelenskyy was there as well. And I think also, it might be, you know, just thinking about how the president thinks, he looks weak. He looks like he - you know, he keeps giving Putin stuff, and Putin doesn't do anything for him. That's not something that this president likes.
MARTIN: So if President Trump is serious about putting pressure on Putin, what actions would be the most persuasive at this point?
MCFAUL: Well, the most important thing would be more weapons to Ukraine. There was this interruption. We still don't know exactly who was responsible for it. The president said - he denied that he approved that. And so the old weapons assistance program that President Biden and the Congress had approved long ago, they've now turned on. What would be more impressive is if he provided new assistance. And he's hinted at the fact that he's now ready to allow American weapons to be sold to Ukraine, with the NATO partners buying it. That would be a win-win-win for everyone. And then second, sanctions. There has not been any new sanctions in the new Trump administration.
MARTIN: And so what about those sanctions? And I'm obviously asking based on your experience in dealing with the Kremlin, you know, as ambassador. As we mentioned, there's a bill in Congress sort of working its way around that originated in the Senate that would bring new sanctions. Is that persuasive to the Kremlin?
MCFAUL: Well, Putin will just dig in. He's not going to say, OK, you've done new sanctions, now I'm going to quit the war. No. But what it will signal is that Trump is changing his policy of appeasement, and I think that's important.
MARTIN: Any particular sanctions directed in any particular sector that you think would be most persuasive?
MCFAUL: Well, the bill that's circulating originated in the Senate, talks about new massive secondary sanctions to punish those that purchase Russian oil and gas, 500% tariffs. And those would be levied against China and India. I have to say, I'm not convinced that that's a credible threat. I can't imagine that we're going to end trade with China and India - that's de facto what that would mean - to try to punish Russia.
I think more effective would be targeted sanctions to stop what's called the shadow fleet. That's all these ships that are shipping oil out of Russia. We could do that if we wanted to. To sanction all of their oil companies. Most of them have been sanctioned, but not all. And then to go after the Russian banking sector. I think more targeted sanctions that reduce the revenue that goes to Russia would be the appropriate and most effective course.
MARTIN: That's the former ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul. He's now at Stanford University. Ambassador McFaul, thank you so much for talking with us.
MCFAUL: Sure. Thanks for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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