MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Not so long ago. If you had asked me to predict where - which country - might see big anti-U.S. protests in 2026, Denmark would not have topped my list - stable, prosperous, NATO ally Denmark. But a week or so ago, Danish veterans took to the streets of Copenhagen in anger, anger over President Trump's threats to take Greenland and over his claim that NATO troops who fought side by side with the U.S. in Afghanistan had, quote, "stayed a little back, little off the front lines," end quote. In fact, Denmark lost more soldiers per capita than the U.S. did in Afghanistan.
What's the way forward for the U.S. and Denmark? Or, for that matter, for the U.S. and NATO? Our next guest is well positioned to field both those questions. He is the former prime minister of Denmark and the former secretary general of NATO. Anders Fogh Rasmussen, welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN: Thank you for having me.
KELLY: What goes through your mind as I describe furious protests against the U.S. in your capital, in Copenhagen?
RASMUSSEN: It's incomprehensible, in a way. It's a very painful process. Since childhood, I have admired the United States. I have considered the United States the natural leader of the free world. We have been one of the most positive and closest allies of the United States. And despite all that, in one year, the Trump administration has actually changed the attitude in Denmark. According to a recent poll, 60% of the Danish people now feel that the U.S. is an adversary.
KELLY: Sorry. I just wanted to make sure I had heard you correctly. You're saying 60 - six-zero?
RASMUSSEN: Six-zero percent now considers the United States an adversary.
KELLY: You just said you grew up thinking of the U.S. as an ally, as the natural leader of the free world. Do you still?
RASMUSSEN: Well, I have always considered the United States a global policeman. But it seems that the policeman now wants to retire, so we have to replace that position. We need someone to lead the free world. My idea is that democracies of the world should unite. I call it a D7. The European Union, the U.K., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and South Korea could be the core in such a cooperation between the world's free democracies.
KELLY: Let me turn to one of the sharpest points of recent tension, which is Greenland. Washington - President Trump has made clear he would like to control Greenland. He has threatened to get it one way or another. Is it clear to you what this framework deal is that he says has resolved his concerns about Greenland?
RASMUSSEN: No, and I think nobody knows. But that's exactly the trick - that you make a deal, the content is a bit unclear, and now we are back on a more, what I would call, traditional diplomatic track. There's been established a working group between Denmark, Greenland and the United States, and in that working group we will figure out how to accommodate the legitimate concerns of President Trump, because I fully agree that we should have more military presence in Greenland. We should have more investments in mining in Greenland. We should make sure that Chinese and Russian investment will not take place in Greenland.
KELLY: I want to ask about a comment I saw you make in which you said, and I quote, "the time for flattery is over. Enough is enough." That's a reference to President Trump?
RASMUSSEN: Yes, indeed, because the Europeans have tried all kinds of strategy, including flattering, but it doesn't work. President Trump only respects one thing - unity and a firm stance. So after his latest threats to impose higher tariffs on European countries that did not support his wish for Greenland, the Europeans decided to unite and stand up against Trump, and it worked.
KELLY: Your successor as NATO chief, Mark Rutte, he says Europe is dreaming - his word - dreaming if it thinks it can defend itself without the U.S. Is he wrong?
RASMUSSEN: Well, I believe that NATO will remain the cornerstone of European North Atlantic security, not least because we have the nuclear umbrella provided by the United States. But within NATO, we need to strengthen what I call the European pillar. I think it should be centered around a coalition of the willing - a number of European countries that are capable and willing to do what is needed to defend ourselves in Europe. And I do believe that a strengthened European pillar will eventually also strengthen NATO. For too long, we have in Europe been dependent on a combination of cheap energy from Russia, cheap goods from China and cheap security from the United States. That model doesn't work any longer. We have to reduce our dependency on external partners. We must be able to do more on our own.
KELLY: A lot of the questions, a lot of the tensions you and I are talking about were on full display, and very publicly, last month in Davos - Davos, Switzerland - where I think it's fair to say, much of the agenda, much of the bandwidth there was hijacked by the conversation about Greenland. A lot of those same people, a lot of the same world leaders are headed this week to Munich. I know you are headed to Munich, Germany, for the annual Munich Security Conference. What are you watching for?
RASMUSSEN: Well, I'm watching for two things. First, Secretary of State Rubio will lead the American delegation, and I hope to listen to some more reconciliatory remarks from his side. And the second element I will be looking for and listening to is the European desire and intention to stand on its own feet and in particular deciding to deploy troops to Ukraine to back up security guarantees for Ukraine against a future Russian attack. And to that end, we need to deploy European troops. So far, the coalition of the willing have been more a coalition of the waiting. Now we have to act, and I will listen to that in Munich.
KELLY: That's Anders Fogh Rasmussen, who served as both secretary general of NATO and as prime minister of Denmark. And I will note, my team and I are headed to Germany too. We're flying tonight, and we are looking forward to bringing all of you listening full coverage as world leaders and diplomats gather for the Munich Security Conference this week. Mr. Rasmussen, thank you for your time. See you in Munich.
RASMUSSEN: Thank you.
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